---start---- sheep/goats 11/2/98 dr freeman handouts contain all the info you need for the takehome exam. Sheep Industry: a group of sheep is a "flock" of sheep. sheep may have white faces or black faces. male sheep are rams or sometimes bucks. male goats are billygoats or bucks. female sheep are ewes, youngsters are lambs. whiteface or blackface simply denotes facial hair, not wool. blackface sheep in general still have white wool. breeds - don't memorize them, they're in the handout. most common sheep people keep for meat in US is the suffolk - one of the largest sheep we handle, rams are about 350 lbs. blackfaced breed, for meat production. clean faced sheep - no wool on face. no wool from carpus down or hock down. hampshire - like suffolk but w/ a bit of wool on edges of face, top of head, cheeks. clean legs, though. shropshire - third most common blackfaced sheep - small/med sized, with some wool on the face to varying degrees, and short ears compared to banana ears of suffolk and hampshire. facial hair may be brownish or black. whitefaced breeds - most common is dorset - rams have big long curly horns if not dehorned. usually are dehorned. some wool on face, white face, pink nose. cheviots: small, clean face, 4H sheep - small, easy to handle. border leicester - like a bigger cheviot, with dark nose romney - big in new zealand, australia - wool production sheep. wool on legs, some tuft of wool on head. all sheep look similar when shorn :) "rambalay?" popular range sheep out west. skinfolds in front. pink nose exotic breeds - often kept as pets - Jacobs' sheep - brown and white. can have up to three pairs of horns on their head! most wool/meat sheep are now naturally polled. but these have multiple sets of horns b/c we haven't selected for polledness yet. can grow a horn out center of head and be "unicorn" small ugly black sheep with weird wool sometimes kept as pet, this sheep is called a ____, wool is sort of hairlike and long. has horns. barbados - brown sheep. short, coarse haircoat doesn't get long, most people think it is a goat. it is sort of goat looking but it is in fact a sheep. you can look for lanolin - sheep make lanolin and have places where it is secreted. a barbados sheep was admitted to NBC as a 2 yr old goat - was here for four days and a student said she thought it was a barbados sheep and it was, it was under a year old. has wax glands like all sheep - lacrimal glands below each eye, between the digits of the feet, with little wax plugs in the duct. inguinal area also has these glands there, one on each side. goats do not have them so you can use them to see if this is a sheep. why do people keep sheep? industry in US is very small. but it's there. people keep sheep here for lamb production - lambs go to market at about 110 lbs - not at an age, but at that weight. they do not care how long it takes - farmer wants it to be 110 by 3.5 mos - usually it's more like 4.5 to 5 mos. big suffolks and hampshires are tall and lanky at 110. little short squatty sheep look ready at 80 lbs but aren't. a ewe should have 2 or 3 lambs a year. one lamb/year isn't enough. it costs $35/yr to maintain a ewe through a cycle. it costs $35/40 to bring a lamb to market. so you need to have more than one lamb/ewe to make money. lamb will sell for $80-100. economics are really really tight. bottom line is important. many sheep get euthanized b/c they are not economically viable. but, in the pet trade, it's totally different. wool production is also important but in US is secondary. avg ewe will shear off about 7 lbs of wool which sells about 30-40 cents per pound. there was a wool incentive program which was geared to using some of the wool-tax money to the sheep producers which bumped up price to $1.80/lb but that was defunct last year. so, wool may be stored at the farm for 2-3 years, then several farms gather all their wool and try to sell it. wool production isn't that important in US. sheep may also be raised for milk. one client milks a flock of Shropshires. she milks 5-6 per year. she makes cheese that is actually very good. doesn't make much money b/c shropshires aren't good milk producers - but her breeding program may improve the milk output. show lambs - lots of 4H people show sheep, kids, adults, purebred breeders - purebred seed stock sheep that go out to improve genetics of other flocks - these sheep may be very individually valuable - one came in with a stated value of $8000 and he was not insured, and he had a urinary blockage and died. woops. these clients demand different care than the production situation. slide: dr freeman with her pet sheep - here seen as a one week old lamb with two broken legs. he lived in her backyard til he was 10 years old. sheep practice at NBC is probably 50% pet sheep. how do you raise sheep? lots of stuff is in the handout. farm flock, range flock, hothouse lambs, various range types...but three main ways. country is divided. farm flocks: eastern us out to midwest range flocks: west feedlots: west farm flocks: sheep are raised as secondary enterprise on the farm. might be crop farm, might be cattle operation, but sheep are secondary. there are 20-200 sheep per farm, these animals are grazed as long as possible, then housed and fed forages and grains. farm flocks often get turned out onto pasture in the fall after the crop of whatever - corn, alfalfa, etc - is harvested. in these farm flocks, animals usually breed in late summer and lamb in winter. they try to hit the lamb market running December through May, when lamb prices peak, then start to fall in May. lambs are weaned at about 60 days, then fed out to gain market weight ASAP. farm flocks do need structures to house them in winter when they are lambing, often there are three sided sheds. another farm flock operation - in dead of winter they are kept in lot, fed with large bale feeder, can go in and out of barn. you don't want lambs out in snow, so they put wire panels up near back of the shed, so ewes lamb inside the shed (you lock them in at night) and then you keep lamb in there a few days under a heatlamp before allowing it out. variation of farm flock: dry lot. sometimes people drylot their sheep on dirt, feed them instead of grazing them. this prevents the parasite problem (nematodes) although doesn't prevent coccidiosis. sheep still do come inside where there is food available at all times. another dry lot situation: animals penned according to age. out west: range flocks - these are great big flocks - 1000 to 10,000 or 13,000 sheep. the range flock operators lease a lot of government land and sheep are out there all year round. these animals are migratory, a dog or two will round them up. lots of territory to cover. they need many acres to graze on to survive and grow lambs. lambs stay with mom 7-8 mos until they hit weaning weight, unless they get supplemental feed to grow faster. usually only like one guy and one dog in charge of a couple of thousand sheep. you follow the sheep around in a jeep or whatever, and the dog protects them from coyotes, dog isn't there to herd, but to protect. eventually they will corral them up in case they need to work through and tail dock or castrate lambs or whatever. they will set up a corral area, do it, then let them go. feedlot flock: only out west. these are just a place for lambs to go to get fed out to market weight. all growing lambs. little houses full of grain are there, and lambs just eat all day long. range farmers will sell lambs to feedlot. if you consider what happens to sheep in feedlot - same problems over and over, different from problems in farm flocks or range flocks. groups of lambs with no shed, no housing, no cover, just out ther,e on dirt, eating and growing. they like to eat and are usually around the feeder eating. how do you handle sheep? depends on your client, size of flock, etc. sheepdog is the best way to work a flock of sheep. in New Zealand, people have great sheepdogs. they love their dogs. they value their dogs at $5000 or more. sheepdogs chase them from back or head them off from the front. a sheepdog who knows how to work sheep is only useful though if sheep know how to work with the dog. the sheep have to be dog broke, and know how to respond. if you take a border collie into our teaching flock, sheep just scatter and run away. sheep may break legs/backs in this way. so to teach sheep how to work with a dog they need to get some dog broke sheep. sheep will learn to run to you. you walk to the barn. sheep will stay with you and follow you. they have to be taught to stay with a group. you put a few dogbroke sheep in a group of 100 sheep - that should work. one day in NZ owner decided to move all these ewes 3 fields over. the dog went out and ran around the whole pen and moved the sheep into the next field. people didn't have to do anything. the dog did all the work. moving a band of range ewes from mountains to low range - again, just drive them, use a few dogs. they move cattle the same way. it's pretty impressive. the sheep all stay together and do what they are supposed to do. they eventually come down onto the road and you have to stop, if you are driving, because there are many many many sheep in the road. sometimes herefords are there, too. they will surround you and lick the car and stuff. they try to get clients to have some kind of handling system if they have >100 sheep. sheep like to run in circles, or to blind ends. they will run into corners, but if space is open will just sit there. so often set up in semicircles. generally opens into some kind of narrow chute system. in the very end - two different chute systems - self latching type, or mighty-mite where you flip them up on their back, which is useful if you are trimming their feet. if you are stuck in a small farm flock with only 10-15 sheep and no dog or handling system - can use shepherd's crook to grab them, then hold on to them. do not let their noses point down b/c the sheep will run and it can run with its head down but not with its head up. so snag the head and point the nose up in the air. then you can flip them - they have an interdental space, where you can put your thumb w/o getting bit. grab lower jaw, with right hand; flank fold with left hand. pull up on flank fold while bending head around toward flank - will get dizy and fall down. then, do not let go of the head. get up and pull her front legs up. there you go. she's sitting now, and you can trim their feet. ok for a few sheep but can hurt your back if you have to do a lot of them. ---break--- quick comment on the last hour - if you remember nothing else - remember that the smaller area you confine sheep in, the better you will do. catching them out in the field will take forever. sure, owner can touch them all when she's out there feeding them. but when you go out with strangers and try to do stuff to them, it will not work. if you only have to catch one sheep, fine, but if more, you can't catch more than one. so tell client it will not work and either refuse to come, or go out and show them it will not work and explain you will have to come back wehn they've made a catch pen. the calmer you can be when trying to catch them, the better. they like to stay together. get them in a corner, approach them calmly. remember the more excited youget, the more excited they will get. question: if all the lambs are marketed, where are adults coming from? well, you keep some lambs for replacement. farmer can keep a few of the best ewe lambs for this. don't save singletons. save triplets. the goat industry is even smaller than sheep industry, but goats are more companionable and there are more pets. either dairy or nondairy breeds. not that many breeds here. dairy: saanen - all white, creamy, with wattles and beard sometimes present as in any goat. most goats are born with hornbuds and are disbudded as babies. if you select for polledness, you get hermaphrodites, remember. you can probably tell difference from naturally polled and dehorned goats after a while - flat area in dehorned goat, smoother curve in polled goat. Toggenberg - brown, white stripes on face, ears, and from hock/knee down Nubian - only large goat with floppy ears like this. roman nose. brown, white, spotted. usually spotted or solid with stripes. only dairy breed with long, floppy ears. very vocal. very popular. nubian babies very cute. they are very prolific. here is a litter of four. want one? we can get you one. easy. sometimes they have five babies at a time! Lamancia? lamanta? la mancha? what? well, whatever it is it doesn't really have an external pinna. alpine - probably only dairy breed with no specific characteristic - usually tricolor or bicolor, but otherwise no real distinct characteristics. straight ears, sometimes striped. rule out other types of goat, then you are left with alpine :). bucks can get really big horns and be dangerous to themselves and others - get stuck in things. over-hobsley? I do not understand what she said. brown goat, with black legs, black dun stripe, black strie down neck. not common goat. non-dairy breeds: angora - she has long curly locks of hair, and has horns. these goats are not disbudded for some reason. they are only about 70-80 lbs. they are the source of mohair. floppy ears like nubians but not as long. white nubians are rare anyway so ... also these are small goats compared to nubians that get up to like 175 lbs. angora baby is very cute, with curly hair. a full fleeced full grown angora goat with good fiber looks to me a bit like a komondor. pygmy goats - from the zoo - very short. horns or polled. pygmy goat business is booming. these are pets. very common in zoos, they are dwarf goats. avg 60 lbs or up to 100 for buck, but you won't see one any taller than a medium goat. very personable. people love them, breed them, take them to goat shows, like dog shows! come in different colors - black, caramel, agouti, chocolate. it's a whole little industry here. and these people really love their goats, which is nice. people who keep dairy goats do so for milk production. goat dairys around here are small. there are a few big ones here or there milking a couple of hundred goats. but only in CA are there a couple 1000 goat dairys. here, we average 7-10 goats/dairy. they make cheese, soap, creams, and some people market milk. but the client has to do it all - not like with cows where a truck will come and take your milk to a plant. you have to milk the doe, package the milk, and drive to the store with it. you need multiple licenses for milking, packaging, bottling, whatever. it's a PITA. white dog cafe uses goat cheese from one of her clients - Greystone Nubian farms' cheese. that farmer has to schlep here twice a week to sell her cheese. it's a pain. so, cheese/milk are two main products hair - mohair or cashmere from kashmir goat - those goats have a lot of fluffy soft undercoat (undergoat?) but otherwise look a lot like dairy goats. kids are used for leather sometimes goat meat is popular with greek orthodox and some other ethnic groups. usually marketed 3-5 mos of age, sometimes adults also. Boar goat which resembles nubian on steroids is imported from Canada, and is popular meat goat breed. a couple other breeds - Kinder goats - nubian x pygmy, to get a small goat with a lot of milk. Nubians really milk well. the Kinder goat looks like a cross b/w nubian and pygmy. nigerian dwarf - looks like fine boned, spotted pygmy. worst breed in the world - Tenessee fainting goat - have myotonia! these poor goats look like pygmys. if you chase them, they get stiff, fall over, can't move. they lay there for a few seconds then get up and run away again. degree of severity varies - some will fall over if you clap your hands. some can sort of run, kind of stiff-leggedly. people are breeding these and making money off it. who wants a goat with myotonia? this makes no sense. can't escape predators. weird. so goats are also pets. more personable than sheep. like to interact with people. kids are a lot of fun, too, and if you hand raise them they are like dogs. can teach them things - use positive reinforcement with goat cookies. slide: goat in bathtub. some people got a bathtub for their horses to drink out of, but a goat got in there. then they got another bathtub for the horses to drink out of and the second goat went in there. so they needed a third bathtub for the horses to dink out of. slide: foal nursing off goat - doe was ok with that. goats are also used as babysitters for racehorses a lot. horses come into NBC with their goat babysitters with them. goat can NOT leave side of horse. you can't remove goat from stall or horse will freak out. how do people keep goats? can be easy to keep but difficult to keep IN. fencing is a huge issue. most dairy clients have converted barns of some type with box stalls, milking parlor...at night, goats get milked, then get put into stalls in groups of 2-3, then get turned out in mornings. they must have a shed to hide from rain. they hate rain. sheep do not mind rain. goats hate it. they must have shelter. goats usually out on pasture during the day, in at night. dairy goats are fed every day b/c are making milk - so they can graze on pasture but they also do get fed while they are out there. slide: barn goats can go in and out of freely. slide: loafing area, hay feeders, place to hang out and eat goats like to climb things - here is a goat standing on top of the fence. at the zoo - small sheds for goats to sit under when it rains; also there is a pallet so they can be off the ground. in winter, they put up two sides to keep wind from blowing in. little aluminum houses are sometimes used. milking stands - little wodden stand, goat gets up there, there is a food bowl there, goat is on stand eating, you pull up next to her and milk her. milk stands are very common. at one farm, they had to walk them out of the barn area which looked like an outhouse, over to the milking parlor with three milk stands. they have a machine milking setup, there. farm no longer in business used to be able to bring in 7 goats at a time, goats would jump up onto cement slab and eat from trough while getting milked. bigger dairy goats will have parlors more like cattle - goats jump onto things, people are sort of down in a pit. goats come in one side, leave other side. or carousel arrangement. but not here. milking machines - used if there are more than 25-30 goats. most clients here use hand milking for their 7-10 goats. milk is handled in various ways - cooler system milk goes into stainless steel that is perfectly clean. goat milk smells like whatever is near it. it picks up odors really easily. have to chill it right away. kidding pens - most farms have these. does go in when near due date. goats tend to have litters. mostly the does do not stay with babies - babies usually kept in kidding box, mom is milked, colostrum is fed to babies, doe goes right into production and isn't allowed to bond with kids b/c they do not want the screaming at weaning. some farms let babies nurse for a few days. some farms let kids nurse and then milk 2x day anyway. wide variation. out in west may see range animals -= usually angoras. also kashmir. these animals are out on the range and management is similar to range sheep, with dog guarding against coyotes and pens set up for processing. goats like to climb - pet goats often have platforms or jungle gyms to play on. so a fence for a goat must be high enough they can't jump it - some goats can jump 4' but most can't. support posts can't be on the inside b/c they will climb up and go over. pygmy goats need wire fencing down to the ground or they get out. post and rail won't work. goats will go right through electric fence. need mesh to keep them in. if tree falls near fence, will climb it. will climb up any tree stump. like to jump up onto picnic tables, cars, anything around. how do you handle goats? easier than sheep. dairy goats are used to daily milking so used to being handled. goats are inquisitive and usually come right up to you. plus they often wear collars. you can't sit them on butt like sheep - they will freak out. you can tie them up with a neck lead. these goats do not wear halters like horses and sheep. they wear a collar and leash. a halter will be fought, and resented. you can put it around their neck like a collar/leash. to work with them, put her on milk stand or in stanchion hayfeeder type thing. you can't turn them upside down to trim their feet. biggest predator - coyote out west - big problem. llamas make good guard animals. a lot of money is spent trying to keep coyote away out west. here, big problem is domestic dogs. new goat/sheep owners often do not realize that pet dogs will do this. recently 9 pygmy goats in a pen were visited by 2 huskies - 4 were killed outright, the rest were hospitalized and one more died. electric fencing can keep dogs out. you really need good fencing. dogs will kill the sheep or goats, rip them open, play with them...they don't eat them, though. dog laws in PA - when she went to pygmy goat farm, police and dog-owner were already there. goat owner grabbed dog collar as evidence, called owner, who came over. police were there. goats were dead. dogs were gone and no one knew where they were - they were at another farm killing goats. dog owner got fined for dogs running loose. police said that was it. but in PA, you can call the county dog officer who will come out, look at dead/injured animals, and then go after dog owner - who has certain rights - this client worked out a deal where dog owner paid for dead goats, paid vet bills, and rebuilt the fence. it was that or have the dogs euthanized as dangerous dogs. so the state cops had no idea about dog officers. but you have to advise your clients of their rights. Nutrition: we aren't going painstakingly through entire handout. you should learn a little of how to feed sheep. make sure to have non-frozen water source in winter. constant drip of fresh water is a way to provide fresh water all the time. sometimes big tubs full of water with a heater in it (goats may try to eat the cable running to the heater element, though) most common limiting problem we see with people feeding sheep/goats is usually energy - total energy from the rations. for maintenance, they really only need forage. if breeding or milking, you need more energy. but people don't feed enough and then they get pregnancy toxemia. corn is cheap, the cheapest grain, and you can feed sheep and goats cracked corn to supplement their energy. some people get confused about what's grain and what's concentrate....mixed grain is usually corn, soybean meal, barley, oats, salt - this is a concentrate - just a grain source - all corn, all oats, or mixed grains, etc. sometimes there is molasses in a mixed grain. sheep/goats usually get forage and concentrate. total mixed ration is everything they need in one package, this is what they usually feed cows. how to feed sheep: so, for forage, during grazing season this is usually grass. should have enough pasture to graze mid May through 12/15 or so. just grass is fine. then, when pasture is all mowed down, and over grazed, you have to supplement them or move them to another pasture. so give them hay or move them. for forage your choices are legume such as alfalfa or clover; or grass like timothy. legume has more energy, calcium, etc. grass is lower protein, lower calcium. most grasses here are timothy or something, and sheep shouldn't usually get clover due to estrogen content, so they get alfalfa or they get orchard grass. sheep waste alfalfa a lot b/c they do not like stems and they waste it. breeders need grain supplement when lactating or pregnant or need any extra energy for anything. third part of diet - salt. most sheep people feed trace mineralized salt that looks brown. or you use regular white salt. how do you deliver feed to sheep? common way for feeding grain is a trough type grain feeder - you go in every day and clean it out, then put new feed in it. you don't put feed on the ground. don't put new feed on top of dirty feeder. make sure there is enough space at trough/feeder for all the sheep to eat at the same time. you could hand feed, but that is hard to do. milking ewes get grain while on milking stand creep feeder for lambs - openings are too small for the ewes to get their heads in there. creep panel - a fence with a panel that lambs can get through but ewes can not - allows lambs into an area where the supplement is. hay feeder - hay goes in top, grain goes in gutter type thing on front. various types of hay feeders are out there. just do not put it on the ground. outdoor pen - hay feeder with slats on side to pull hay out. make sure heads can't get through slats or they will get caught - just a nose should fit in. keyhole feeder popular with goats. hay can be brought to a pen and put into a big bale feeder. just do not put it on the ground! they defecate/urinate on it, do not like to eat it. goats will eat almost anything, whereas sheep are sort of picky. here we see a research lab. every xmas/thanksgiving, goats get treats - cheezits and potato chips and popcorn. they go to the store and buy 25 lbs of this stuff. they put the goats outside and close the doors. they mix all this stuff into the feeder, then let the goats in. the goats smell it and start banging on the doors. they open the doors and then 55 goats fly in and eat the treats as fast as possible. they love the cheezy poofs :) then they eat the popcorn, then potato chips. then they stand there with little cheezy dust stuff on their faces, then they all line up at the automatic waterer. :) ---break--- facts of nutritional management - accounts for about 60-70% of total costs; not that hard to feed sheep/goats; poor nutrition results in increased incidence of dz, decreased productivity, lost profit. remember: concentrate == grain == concentrate. can be corn, oat, barley, or any mixture. if you say "commercial grain mix" you mean "balanced concentrate, commercially prepared." when you look at feeding sheep/goats, energy is most common limiting factor in adults who normally subsist on forage - and need nothing more unless you breed them, or milk them, or whatever. that's b/c they can't eat enough in one day - can only eat about 5 lbs of forage in one day and can't get enough energy from that to support twin pregnancy. protein is commonly misunderstood. in youngstock, they do fine til weaning - b/c milk is high protein. then they get weaned to grass hay which won't sustain growth b/c of protein deficiency. they need higher protein forage or higher protein concentrate mix like soybeans. the only other thing - regarding minerals: if you really look at sheep/goats they are very easy to feed, just keep in mind the Ca/PO4 ratio - the Cu/molybdenum stuff, and the vitamin E/selenium level. these are the major things. what will your clients do? major costs are in feed. so this is where you can make a difference! look at the ration, see if you can formulate a cheaper ration for them. sometimes soy is cheaper, sometimes cottonseed is cheaper. when they aren't fed well, we see more dead lambs. most farms feed: commercially prepared concentrates ($) same concentrates to all groups of animals without providing free choice minerals ($) on the advice of the feed mill or neighbors - biggest mistake they can make!! too much concentrate (pet owners do this) if you call feed mill, they will try to sell you crunchy 16 which will kill sheep. then they will try to sell you horse feed that will be too high in copper. then they will try to sell livestock feed that is for "cattle sheep horse and goat" and which is totally bogus. clients need to know about this. they have to buy *sheep* food. common errors: energy deficiency: pregnancy toxemia in adults, starvation in youngstock Cu excess/Mo deficiency: chronic copper toxicity - esp around here, since Mo isn't present in our forage or in feed. PO4 excess: grain/corn high in PO4 --> urinary calculosis, obstruction in males energy and protein excess: lactic acidosis, laminitis, obesity nutrition program - what do you do on the farm? ask and observe! -body condition of animals -look at young stock -is mineral block present? is it red, indicating copper? -don't wait for problems to surface -look at labels on feed bags -look and see if they use horse mineral blocks -is hay dusty and moldy? -what concentrate do they use? look at label -what mineral mix is offered -asses forage quality -look at bags of concentrate and mineral mix this whole sheep feed thing sounds weird to me. why are places selling stuff as sheep feed if it is not sheep feed? note: goats are not nearly as sensitive to copper as sheep are -t hey can eat horse feed longer than sheep can, but it is still best to consider them as sheep to some extent, nutritionally. guidelines for sheep: adult ewe/ram or pregnant sheep in first two trimesters up to 15 wks - 1.5-2% of body weight on dry matter basis or: 4 lbs good quality forage for 150 lb ewe, free choice mineral mix, free choice water. this is maintenance feed. forage should be grass or grass hay, not alfalfa. pregnant ewe in late gestation or ewe in early lactation: energy needs increase 2.5 x maintenance or: 4 lbs forage plus 1 lb corn (late gest), or 2.5 lbs corn (early lactation). free choice mineral mix, free choice water. but you should start adding corn in at 1/4 lb/day in last week, raise to 2 lbs/day if nursing twins, over a few days. 2.5 lbs is actually a little high. lambs: 75-78% TDN, 14-16% protein. access to creep feed by 1 wk of age, in order to establish normal rumen function, establish normal eating habits, reduce grain engorgement when really offering grain. free choice feed or limited feed -> depends on client goals. if the flock is huge and you are trying to save money, they will probably use a creep starter ration at 18% protein fed up til 40 lbs, then they go to grower ration which is 14-16% protein up to 80 lbs, then 12% protein finishing ration until market weight. this is more cost effective. but if you're only feeding say 60 lambs, just pick a middle range feed to use. creep fed/ 4H lambs: add 4% salt to encourage drinking, prevent urinary calculi, add 1-2% ammonium chloride in sort of lame attempt to acidify urine (10 gm/head/day), mix limestone 50:50 with mineral mix also to bump up calcium, prevent urinary calculi. dairy goats: feed every day! encourage maximal forage consumption, feed good quality forage ad lib, avoid grain engorgement on milking stand, feed free choice mineral mix and water. 17-18% protein is adequate. goats usually get fed 1 lb grain per every 3-4 pounds milk produced. if goat makes 15 lbs milk daily, that's a lot of grain to eat. so you should feed some of it on grain stand, and also at other times, to avoid engorgement. pet sheep and goats: avoid milk engorgement in bottle fed kids and lambs. by the time they are 3-4 wks old, they are getting all they need in 2 feedings, am and pm - and they are all bloated by the end of a feeding. this sets them up for toxemia. it's better to feed them over 3-4 times/day instead of twice a day. they need 15-20% body weight in milk per 24 hrs. four feedings is best. after grown, encourage low concentrate/high fiber diets in youngstock. eliminate concentrates in healthy adults. owners want to give them treats - animal crackers are good treats. they love them. ration analysis: good idea esp if there are nutritional problems on the farm. this isn't that expensive. you take samples of hay and feed and send it in, and can save money if you get some good information back that helps you get rid of metabolic disease on the farm. your tag on the bag only tells you the ingredients and the minimum/maximum. Ca/PO4 ratio is usually way off. case: 1 yr old welsh mountain ewe 1/15/95 this is a small exotic pet sheep hx: bought 2 mos ago with one other ewe and ram. new ewes were placed in with the flock of 25 dorset crosses, and ram put with other ram. today, this ewe is depressed and not eating. questions: is she pregnant? well, seller said no, and she hasn't been with rams. does she have a fever? don't know. what was her previous diet? don't know. he feeds her hay free choice (grass hay) and 1/2 lb to 1 lb mixed concentrate sheep feed per day. do the dorsets crowd her out since she is smaller? no, he says he sees that she usually goes to the feeder and eats. worming/vax? prior to purchase, yes. "doesn't look pregnant" ddx? pregnancy toxemia, starvation, other? go look at her. PE: slightly depressed, had to chase to catch, Temp 102.5, HR 110, RR 48, rumenal motility decreased, normal manure, nothing abnormal, mm pink. no lamb felt. so temp is normal, HR/RR normal. decreased motility of rumen means she isn't eating well. her abdomen didn't feel pregnant to you but she could still be pregnant. smell breath for acetone - don't smell it but doesn't mean much. body condition - a bit thin, not horrible. teeth ok. cover her nose to get her to pee - check urine dipstick. now, if she's really sick and you cover her nose, you could almost kill her by making her hypoxic enough to urinate. she could pass out on you. urine: ketone positive - she's ketotic so she's energy deficient, likely to be pregnant (dr freeman has never seen a nonpregnant, ketotic ewe). tx: fluids, glucose, propylene glycol, oatmeal/cream of wheat per tube. how can we solve her problem today? abort the fetus. how? steroids. we do not know if lambs are viable. we know she's late term. owner wants to save ewe. oxytocin is bad in sheep. prostaglandins do not work in sheep b/c they are not CL dependent. steroids work. usually. what else? C-section. so, she got propylene glycol 60 cc BID, iv dextrose (dr freeman doesn't do that anymore though), bran, cream of wheat, etc - drench four times a day with that. followup: five days later, owner calls, sunday night, she looks depressed, breathing heavily. not ketotic for the past few days - could be in labor, could be sick. what do you want to do? get in the truck and go see her? yes. PE: temp 106, hr 130, rr 60, slight bloody vaginal d/c, injected sclera. septic? metritis? dead lamb? aha! bloody vaginal d/c with fever and no ketosis x 2 days == dead fetus. she hasn't been eating well AND she isn't ketotic - so lamb must be dead, energy sink is gone. so you have to do vaginal exam. cervix is closed. what are your options? c-section. you can *try* prostaglandins b/c she does have d/c and may be preparing to abort. oxytocin isn't useful, often just clamps muscle around lamb making section harder. ---end----